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John Norris (00:30):
Well, hello again everybody. This is John Norris at Trading Perspectives. As always, we have our good friend, Sam Clement. Sam, say hello,
Sam Clement (00:36):
John. How are you doing?
John Norris (00:37):
Sam, I’m doing really well. I’m doing really well, but I’m beginning to feel a little maybe, I don’t know, insecure about all the possessions I’ve accumulated in my life.
Sam Clement (00:44):
Why is that?
John Norris (00:46):
Well, John recently moved out of the house and he was happy to take the sofa and the old patio furniture.
Sam Clement (00:53):
Things with utility.
John Norris (00:54):
Yeah, some things with utility and all that stuff. But my wife told me the other night that the kids have already said they don’t really want a lot of what we have. I mean, if and when, but when the time comes that we go on and meet our maker and all that bad stuff or good stuff as the case may be… John has said, I don’t really want anything that you all have, but for the painting of the Apples. And Annie’s largely of the same opinion. And I turned Beth, I said, what the heck’s this all about? We’ve got nice stuff. We have a nice house. And she goes just, I don’t know, “younger generations.” And in truth, when I go over to my parents’ house and I’m blessed that both my parents still alive, how much of their stuff I want? Not much, not much, not much of anything. And I wonder what it is about, maybe it’s a generational thing, taste change or what have you, but I wonder whether or not it’s maybe on steroids now that changing consumer preferences and the like that maybe your generation just doesn’t put the same value on things that were once considered sort of maybe, if not maybe sacrosanct, but certainly very valuable.
Sam Clement (02:02):
I do think by and large that’s the case, that it is more so now that people, kids, whatever, the newer generations care less about the previous generation’s stuff. I probably think a lot of that is due to the massive increase in the changes of preferences. So people now, kids now, want things that are so different than previous generations. Not to get into the weeds of crypto and NFTs, but collectibles are becoming something that is online even so the technology has changed so much that I think consumers, younger consumers, their preferences are changing at a much greater rate. And then you throw on top of that: minimalism, which is not, I wouldn’t say too widespread, but there’s at least a large chunk of people that just don’t want a lot of stuff. So I think that’s a big part of it.
John Norris (02:56):
Tiny houses and all that. But I guess what you’re really trying to say is technology and just design have changed so much so quickly that tastes are changing alongside with them. Whereas previously a good solid piece of wooden furniture you kept for generations, scraps and the sift and all that stuff, but there wasn’t as much furniture. The brand new furniture just cost a lot of money. And so these pieces we pass around from generation to generation… Now all of a sudden I take a look at some of the antiques that my parents have and they’ve got a couple of things that maybe in future in previous generations, people go, my gosh, that rope bed that you have is awesome, early 19th century type things. And Brooke, my sister and I are just like, I don’t think so. And who knows, maybe when the time comes and it’s time to settle estates and all that stuff, someone will appear out of the ether and say, ah, your parents really have some nice stuff.
(03:56):
I’m going, but I’ve got no space for it. And I’m thinking that probably the same thing will happen when Annie and John get to decide what they want from the possessions that Beth and I have accumulated along the years. But a couple of things that I really wanted to point out. I already mentioned furniture, but I also, when we talk about that for just a second, I also want to talk about things about fine China, which parents have always hoarded for generations, silver for generations, and then just talk about collectibles just in general. Things that people just hoarded thinking that they were going to be worth something of value and then all of a sudden you find out they really aren’t. And then I want to talk about why that is, and I’m going to start with low hanging fruit with baseball cards.
Sam Clement (04:44):
See, I grew up collecting baseball cards. I mean, I literally have a dozen shoe boxes full of baseball cards and those binders where you could put them in the little sleeves. I was very into collecting baseball cards.
John Norris (05:00):
Right there. You’ve already given the reason why they’re not as valuable as people thought that they might bear.
Sam Clement (05:06):
Yes, I probably have a few that are valuable out of some sort of made up scarcity, but that is one…. you know, I don’t have young sons that are at a time where they’d be collecting cards, but it feels like that’s probably something that is going away as well.
John Norris (05:29):
Well, I would also say that I think that craze has peaked because at one point there really were scarcity for a lot of cards because baseball cards, when I was growing up and I’m just a little bit older than you are, Sam, you got them as much for the stick of gum that came with as you did the cards themselves. And really you didn’t bother keeping a whole bunch of the guys that weren’t any good that you hadn’t heard of. And even then parents were prone to throw out cards and moms…
Sam Clement (05:55):
Put them in your bike and make noise?
John Norris (05:56):
The noise, all that stuff. Well, I didn’t do that, but a lot of people did and all that stuff. So cards were a little bit rarer. Then all of a sudden when people started seeing the prices that you could get for certain types of cards, people started saving whole boxed sets, just saving them all that stuff. Now all of a sudden there’s just a glut of these things. So much so, I think you really almost have to try to find a good card shop. Here in the Birmingham metropolitan area, we’ve got about 1.2, 1.3 million people walking around depending on which estimate you want to use. And I remember a few years ago I took John out there. We’d been saving cards and getting him all involved in it. He had like, gosh, some cards that I thought were really pretty good, like some Reggie Jackson cards from the 1970s, and the guy wouldn’t even put a bid on him. He had an autographed picture from Joe Namath, the guy wouldn’t even put a bid on it.
Sam Clement (06:47):
I was going to add on that, the autograph portion of sports memorabilia, too. I mean, if you had the Babe Ruth jersey from “the call,” that’s probably still worth something.
John Norris (07:00):
And John had an Alabama football and he went to Auburn, so he probably would hate hearing this, but he went to an Alabama game – players were there and all these people signed the ball and what have you. Guy wouldn’t even put a bid on it, not even a bid on. And I said, what is this? He goes, there’s just so much of this stuff out there already and a lot of the kids haven’t even heard of some of these players. I go,Reggie Jackson? They said, yeah, Reggie Jackson, Mr. October. I mean, walked out of there and just didn’t get anything. I would say really, there’s not a lot of scarcity in sports memorabilia.
Sam Clement (07:36):
No. I mean, again, by and large generic autographs, generic cards, it takes something truly unique. Again, if you had Jordan’s flu game jersey, that’s probably worth something. There’s only one of those.
John Norris (07:57):
Well, and I would tell you that I went to Cal Ripkin’s 2131 game and at the time I got the ticket and the sleeve that it came in, all the memorabilia that they gave you at the stadium, I thought, boy, this is going to be worth something one day. You know how much it’s worth?
Sam Clement (08:09):
Probably not a lot. Not a lot because what was, what 30 …
John Norris (08:13):
No, it was about 40,000 people there that night and my ticket is stamped. They did have a press and all that, and it’s in mint condition, but it wasn’t one of the box seat tickets. It was nosebleed type seats. So it’s printed a little bit different. And if I went on eBay, I might be able to get 35, 40 bucks for it, but that’s about it.
Sam Clement (08:32):
And not to go off on a baseball tangent either, but that’s when you knew going into the game what was going to happen. So everyone, a larger chunk of people were keeping and protecting that ticket. Then Nolan Ryan’s seventh, no-hitter or something like that where you’re …I am talking my book, but you get what I’m saying. Everyone went in knowing that…
John Norris (08:56):
Whatever your stuff…
Sam Clement (08:58):
I’m sitting high and mighty.
John Norris (08:59):
Your stuff stinks compared to Carol Ripkin (laughs). So establish baseball’s just really, I mean, baseball memorabilia, sports memorabilia, you really do have to have something really terribly unique. That’s standard 1977 Reggie Jackson baseball card. If you can find someone to give you three bucks for it at an actual card shop, you can go on, listen, you can go online and see people, Hey, I’m going to eBay and I’m going to sell it. You got prices all over the board for that type of stuff, but where the rubber meets the road, you have to find someone that’s actually willing to pay you for it and there’s just not a lot of demand. So you’re saving all those baseball cards. I hope you enjoy looking at them, what have you. Unless you got Onus Wagner or some of the first five in the hall of fame or something truly unique afterwards, probably not worth as much as you think it’s going to be. Next up, coins, shiny coins.
Sam Clement (09:51):
See, you and I have talked about coins, and again, we can almost exclude any super rare or something of that sorts when we’re talking about value, but I kind of view it as bullion
John Norris (10:09):
When you
Sam Clement (10:09):
When you start talking about silver coins or gold coins, I’m not talking under Caesar or gold coins from Rome, but
John Norris (10:20):
Caesar ?
Sam Clement (10:21):
Of just a standard gold US coin that’s bullion.
John Norris (10:26):
Well, in a lot of ways, you’re right. And truthfully, if you’re sitting onto a whole bunch of coins and you find them and find that you got some JFK silver dollars or Eisenhower half hours, or was it the other way around? I can’t keep it straight. Those Susan B. Anthony, silver dollars Sacajawea all these things. I hate to tell you this, but they’re pretty much worth whatever’s stamped on the front of it. There’s not a lot of precious metal in those things. If anything, after what? 1963, 1964, I think it was the last year that there was actual silver in US coins. So everything after that, a zinc/copper sort of type alloy. And really it’s not worth terribly much. The reason why is because the US Bureau of Engraving in Mint made a lot of them. Literally millions and in some cases tens of millions. So you have any sort of recent-issue coin, unless you keep it completely in mint condition now, I mean never left the box, all that stuff that might have a little, what’s called numismatic value in about four generations until such time, not a whole lot.
(11:39):
You might be able to get a little bit above face value, but for not terribly much. Now, Sam, it’s when you get back to the coins that actually have bullion on them, I mean, true silver or even rare gold, that’s when you all of a sudden you start getting, “Hey, okay, I’m going to get the spot price of silver for this,” or at least that’s where I start the bidding on this type thing. But even then people would say, I’ve got some Morgan dollars, some Morgan silver dollars. You can go back to the 1890s, 1900 whatnot and think this is a really old coin. Problem is they printed a lot of them back then there was still a lot of those things being struck that unless you have these things that have been graded and generally with an M-F sort of rating or something like a most fine or just really almost mint condition, you’re going to get maybe a little bit of numismatic value. But mostly what you’re going to get is bullion value. Most of these people were using them. They’re well worn, you can’t make all the faces on the lady on the front and what have you. So even your old coins passed down to generation to generation don’t have the same type of value that you might wish for them to have.
Sam Clement (12:45):
Same with other precious metal objects, whether it’s spoons and just general silver… I view that again, ignoring historical, if this was on the, I don’t know, the Mayflower or something, maybe that’s worth more but generic silver plate, how much does it weigh?
John Norris (13:08):
Well, that’s what I was going, I was going to talk about silver in just a second. A couple more things and we’ll discover these really quickly. Not to knock these people at all, not to knock this company. They make some very nice small tea stuff, anything by the Franklin Mint. Are we okay with that one? Sure. Do you know what the Franklin Mint is?
Sam Clement (13:27):
Somewhat.
John Norris (13:29):
This company, they used to make little figurines and whatnot and say that they were collector’s items. Okay, fair enough. If it’s a collector’s item, you’re probably not buying it on the television.
Sam Clement (13:41):
Yeah, probably so.
John Norris (13:43):
So anything that you bought on the television as a collector’s items probably hadn’t held up in value terribly much. Another one is cartoon cells. You go to Disney World at one point and they were selling cartoon cells of the original movies and all that stuff. People were buying them up by the bushel and for top dollar and then all of a sudden, you know what they had ?
Sam Clement (14:07):
Nothing.
John Norris (14:07):
A tiny little frame in a movie that had millions of frames. And so that type of stuff doesn’t hold up terribly well either. I’m busting people’s bubbles here to tackle all these things.
Sam Clement (14:18):
Sounds like there’s not much.
John Norris (14:19):
There’s not a whole lot. And now I want to talk about, and I’ll get back to some other things. As I remember as we’re talking, I had planned on talking, but I forgot about ’em. We’re talking about china. China patterns, nice plates, formal dinnerware, full table setting, eight to 12, whatever your definition is, how popular is that stuff in your generation?
Sam Clement (14:44):
It’s obviously not as popular as it once was. It’s not a “you must register for this” kind of thing when you’re getting married. I think it may be making a little bit of a comeback, but I kind of group it similarly to furniture that you talked about in the sense that it’s maybe a nice chair, still a chair, maybe a nice plate, still a plate. I mean people, the value of this nice handmade hand painted, what have you, that part of it has not really lasted, I would say. But I do think, and maybe this is anecdotal in my generation, in the area I live in and the people I’m around, I do think people are starting to appreciate that more. And you’re starting to see it come out. We’re talking two generations older than my generation. That’s the generation where I think you’re really starting to see stuff be passed down that’s really fine china. And I think it’s starting to be appreciated maybe a little bit more. So I think that may be one that might be turning positive in terms of how much people appreciate it now, but it’s less about, I have zero interest in registering for a nice set of brand new china.
John Norris (15:58):
Well, I mean Hannah’s probably pretty glad of that, that you’re not registering for another
Sam Clement (16:02):
Well, we didn’t register for it, but my point is I think she would be interested and I honestly probably would be too, whether it’s her grandmother’s or my grandparents or that there’s something beyond just the fact that it was a nice plate or what have you.
John Norris (16:18):
Yeah, okay.
Sam Clement (16:19):
I think that’s where it’s coming back a little.
John Norris (16:22):
I think that’s a little bit surprising to me because I don’t make a habit of going to estate sales. However, I will occasionally go to an estate sale. And generally what I have found at again, estate sales, is they almost can’t give china away unless it’s really some obscure brand or brand or pattern from France or something that’s really terrible unique. The china always seems to be almost the last thing to go. All you need is a single missing salad plate out of a full set and then all of a sudden the value drops pretty precipitously. Sort of like you’re not going to pay the same amount for a 50 card deck, are you? Of course not. No. And that’s the same thing with china patterns. So I’m kind of surprised to hear you say that we don’t attend a ton of weddings, but the weddings that we have attended and bought things off the registry I don’t see a lot of fine china out there. See every day and everyday flatware. And we’ll get to silver in just a second. And I was wondering, I’m wondering now what you said about china, whether or not would you say that your generation is a little bit more appreciative of this ?
(17:34):
In the fact that they would like to have fine china and would prefer to buy their own or they’re happy to get them from a pass down?
Sam Clement (17:42):
I think the pass down element is a part of it. Again, even if I had to pay for it, I’d rather pay for the one that was coming down generations from my family than going out and getting a brand new one.
John Norris (17:56):
But in terms of let’s say big dollars, would you be willing, would you want or be willing to pay top dollar for someone china?
Sam Clement (18:07):
No.
John Norris (18:09):
So it’s not just china in general, it’s the fact that it’s china that’s coming down from family members .
Sam Clement (18:16):
Largely, yes.
John Norris (18:17):
Okay. And you think that’s probably pretty,
Sam Clement (18:20):
I don’t think that’s widespread
John Norris (18:22):
Characteristic of your generation?
Sam Clement (18:23):
But I do think it’s coming back a little bit. I do think you’re seeing some kind of green shoots of people in areas and kind of starting to appreciate things of a past generation that were better quality and what have you. And furniture is the same way. I do think it’s nowhere near where people appreciate it as much, and I’m not going to act like I do either. But there are pieces, you see things and there’s nice antique stores where it’s things from the 17 hundreds in France, these handmade wooden pieces that are in immaculate condition.
John Norris (18:59):
That’s where I was going to make the point when we’re talking about silver in just a second, it’s still that scarcity value that is the driver of price. Not, hey, got a whole bunch of depression error furniture from Royal. That’s still, you want a bunch of that? But if you see a truly great piece of furniture made by an obvious craftsman, even if it’s something as old fogey as a four poster bed, when you see a quality piece of furniture, you see that and recognize that. However, you just want to pass down the end table that’s 40 years old. You don’t care anything about that.
Sam Clement (19:41):
Yeah, and I guess that’s kind of how most of these things we’re talking about are that there’s this spectrum and that very high end, the Jordan flu game jerseys no different than the,
John Norris (19:53):
I don’t even know what you’re talking about with that.
Sam Clement (19:56):
The game where he had the flu in the playoffs against the Jazz where he jumped up in the air after making a buzzer beater.
John Norris (20:02):
Oh, that okay. I didn’t know he had the flu during that. There you go. I go, all right. I learned something new every day. Particularly from Sam. Alright, that takes us to silver, like silver trays, all that stuff. What do you your generation think about this? Is it same as furniture passing on along or unless it’s truly a unique piece from a renowned silversmith, a Paul Revere or some French English master from back in the day, what do you think about a 40-year-old silver serving
Sam Clement (20:35):
Truck doesn’t move the needle. But as I’m saying this, I kind of wonder how much of this is a generational bias in the Well
John Norris (20:45):
That’s important. Someone’s
Sam Clement (20:46):
Got to buy this stuff. Not the generational bias, but the age group that we’re in. That’s
John Norris (20:52):
Also known as a generation.
Sam Clement (20:53):
No, but I’m saying as we age out, I think my generation may become more interested again as people in their twenties get into their late thirties and their forties and they’re in nicer houses, bigger houses, quality. I could see that being a part of it. Some about the generation itself. I don’t think it’ll ever probably go back to the same importance, but I do think just age in itself plays a pretty significant role. I mean, young people as a whole don’t want their parents’ old stuff even. They’d rather have a cheaper couch that looks new and looks nicer than something that may be 10 times more expensive.
John Norris (21:31):
Well, I’m proof positive of that. And I’m not your age. I’m 56. I’ll, I’ll tell you this though. Even what you just said about they’re being ancient, there’s really not. I mean there’s really not, because we just recently have been on this furniture spree, which is crazy. Bought some outdoor furniture and bought a new couch, bought the new chairs inside. We didn’t buy a whole bunch of wooden furniture. We didn’t buy a bunch of stuff that looked like my parents might’ve owned it or that we might’ve owned 20 years ago. And we don’t have the money, nor would I be willing to spend the money to get classical French furniture or so. This is an outdoor patio set. But my tastes have changed more along the lines of a little bit more modern, a little bit more contemporary and all that stuff. And if you were to tell me right now, and maybe I’m different, “Hey, you’ve got a thousand bucks to spend… Why don’t you buy this silver serving tray or this tea service?” I’m probably saying not terribly much. Probably same, not terribly much. Most of it’s played anyhow. But even if you could find a full sterling silver serving tray, how much is that really worth to anyone when you go to execute an estate? If say it was made in 1950?
Sam Clement (22:56):
Yeah, not a whole lot.
John Norris (22:58):
It’s a worth bullion. Maybe a shape. Melted down.
Sam Clement (23:00):
Melted down.
John Norris (23:01):
Melt it down. I mean, that’s true. People might be out there saying, that’s crazy. That’s not the case. I hate to say it really is kind of the case. Whenever you have something that is mass produced or producing a greater quantity, then all of a sudden there’s not going to be that much of a price for, you’re just not going to be able to command a premium. It’s that stuff, which there isn’t a lot left of. And it was really top-notch back in the day. People were willing to pay a premium for back in the day. That’s stuff that’s still around hundreds of years later…. People will still be willing to pay for it. All those baseball cards have been gathering dust in your closet. Guess what? There are a lot of other people out there that have baseball cards gathering dust in their closet.
(23:47):
All those people who bought those coin sets. And the reason why I’m bringing up coin sets because I bought a bunch of them for John if to put it in stocking when he was a kid for Christmas every year, got the new coin set. You know what he left when he moved out of the house? Yeah, well that amongst some other stuff I thought that he would enjoy collecting that stuff has absolutely no appeal. Same thing with china patterns. I love our china pattern. It’s beautiful. We never use it because I’m scared of breaking it. However, my mom collects china. I mean it’s crazy. Blessed to have her still alive. But I don’t know what I’m going to do with all these plates, all this type of stuff. Happy to take them. But it doesn’t have the same appeal to me as it did to her when she was collecting all these type things.
(24:32):
So when you kind of take a look at things and trying to figure out what sort of special item, antiques roadshow, that type of stuff that I’ve got out there, that’s really going to be a surprise when I go into retirement or someone’s got to execute my will. The chances are? Probably not as valuable as you would like, unfortunately, due to the fact that there’s a reason why things are called scarce and what you have is probably not as scarce as what you think. People don’t like to hear it, but you got to sometimes. So with that, guys, we always love hearing from you. Also, if you have any comments or questions, please by all means, let us know. You can always drop us a line at or you can leave us a review on the podcast outlet of your choice.
(25:21):
If you’re interested in reading more or hearing more of what we got to say or how we think, you can always go to oak worth.com, O-A-K-W-O-R-T H.com. Take a look underneath the Thought Leadership tab, which is towards the right hand side of the page, scroll down and you’ll find links to all kinds of interesting articles and exciting information, including links to previous Trading Perspectives podcasts, links to our blog slash newsletter called Common Sense and links to our quarterly analysis called Macro Market and as well as recently some nice pieces about a couple of our client advisors. John Hensley had a nice piece that’s out there. Janet Ball had a nice piece that’s out there. I think Richard Littrell had a piece that’s out there as well as commentary always from Mac Frasier on our advisory services team. So with that, do you have anything else to say on this topic? That’s all I got. That’s all I’ve got today too. Y’all take care.