Listen to the full episode, here.
John Norris (00:30):
Well, hello again, everybody. This is John Norris at Trading Perspectives. As always, we have our good friend, Chris Cooper. Chris, say hello.
Chris Cooper (00:36):
Hey, John. How are you doing?
John Norris (00:37):
Chris, I’m doing fantastically. And this week’s topic and what we’re going to discuss, I got to tell you guys, anyone out there listening, ladies and gentlemen and boys and girls of all ages, this one kind of gave my compliance team sort of a heartburn. It really sort of did. They were like, “Oh no, if you can get away without being too political, don’t throw anything religious in there.” And so I’ve got to tell you, anything that’s in this podcast, going to give you a little caveat, make Michelle happy. Anything that we say here today is just my opinion only, or Chris’s opinion only, and not necessarily the opinions of anyone at Oakworth Capital Bank, its shareholders, directors, any of that good stuff. And I don’t think we’ll get to the point where you really need to have to go back and remember what I said at the beginning with the caveat.
But what we’re going to discuss here today is, and the question I’m asking, the topic, the theme of it, if you will, is are we at a historical inflection point when public dissatisfaction with the status quo/the ruling establishment leads to significant societal change? And I’ve submitted for approval, and we’ll see what marketing has to say about the name of this particular podcast. I put it down as “When the Levee Breaks.” And “When the Levee Breaks,” Chris, I know you don’t remember this, there’s a great song by Led Zeppelin, which was a heavy metal band in the 60s and 70s. I got to tell you that. I think they had one album in the 80s. And “When the Levee Breaks,” that would be great intro music for this, but I don’t want to spend the money to do that. If you know the song, you know what I’m talking about.
But more importantly, let’s talk about what’s happening here. When the levee breaks, is all the societal unrest that we are seeing around the world going to lead to something a little bit different? Are they like the riots in 1968 or even all the revolutions of 1848? And I’m not asking people to remember all that type of stuff, but they can remember going back just six short years ago. In 2020, the US seemed to be having its summer of discontent.
In 2026, it seems as though Europe is now having its autumn of discontent. And are they related? And if so, kind of how? And I’ll take a stab at this first, Chris, and tell you that they’re sort of related. I don’t think necessarily politically with the Americans doing something and trying to foment unrest in Europe, or anything along those lines. And I don’t know if there are black forces behind the scenes who are just trying to make things worse than they need to be. I’m not going to get into all that, but I will tell you people generally don’t tend to riot. People don’t riot when they feel as though they’re on top of the world when they feel good about stuff. And there’s a difference between maybe demonstrating a bad piece of legislation or something like that. When people are actually rioting and willing to be arrested, get beaten up by the cops, willing to do whatever, they generally are disenfranchised in some form or fashion.
Now, I would say you would have to take the riots and then the unrest in 2020 in the U.S., maybe with a grain of salt, if not an ounce or even a pound of salt, just due to all of the weirdness that was going on, shelter in place, and you can’t leave, and the Coronavirus and all that. People were already sort of screwed up in the head. But I would tell you that the extent and the level of the riots back then of the unrest suggests that there’s a huge chunk of the American population, rightly or wrongly, it might be some people saying it’s the greatest country in the world and it is, but they might be saying that people now have no reason to riot in the United States. And in objective terms, maybe they have an argument, but in relative terms and all things sometimes come down to relativity.
There are a lot of people apparently in the U.S. that feels as though they’re getting the short end of the stick, otherwise they wouldn’t be rioting. And you take a look at what’s going on in Europe. Burning down that city hall in Limoges, burning that stuff down and just the extent of the riots, and not just in France, but that seems to be getting the most press.There were a bunch of riots in Italy, and Spain, and even Portugal and elsewhere. People generally don’t tend to riot when they’re feeling good about stuff. And I would say they have those things in common. Some of the things that I’m seeing, the difference, is the riots in the United States did not seem to have started from immigrants or new people into the countries.
And from what we can tell, maybe at least in France where we have most of the new press, that does seem to be a lot of it. That’s where they started. In Spain, it was about how to get the socialist government to give them even more money for pensioners. And I don’t know what was going on in Italy, but the police had to barricade Milan, all that stuff. But from where we know it, it seems as though a lot of people in France started off talking about bad schools and what have you. A lot of people out there rioting maybe weren’t born in France or have not become naturalized.
And that begs the question. And I think Chris, you were going to talk about it. It’s like if people aren’t born in a country, if they’re not from the country and they’re coming in, do they have the same emotional attachment? Do they have the same ownership mindset as someone that is historically from there? Ownership mindset’s a good way of thinking about it.
Or people coming in saying… I’m going to pick on France again. I’m not trying to pick on France, but that’s just again where a lot of this news seems to be coming out of. If it seems as though, and I could be wrong on this, and it’s an American reading the news, seeing some interviews, a lot of the discord in Europe seems to be people want to be in France and for good reasons: wealthy country, a lot of history, good food, all that stuff. People want to be in Spain. People want to be in Italy. People want to be in Portugal. People want to be in all these places.
That’s no doubt and completely understandable if you’re coming from sections of the world where there’s civil war, there’s no economic opportunity. Why wouldn’t you want to? I guess the biggest issue is, do these people, while they want to be in France, do they want to be French? While they want to be in Italy, do they want to be Italians? While they want to be in Spain, do they want to be Spanish? And the same can be said in Portugal. And that’s where I’ve got a real question mark. Chris, I bloviated enough. Your thoughts, please.
Chris Cooper (07:07):
Well, no, you talked about the summer of discontent in 2020, and that’s probably fresh on many Americans’ minds as they look at the news and everything going on in Europe. And to me, yeah, the images, and some of the fires, and some of the rioting, it looks similar, but I personally categorize them in two different categories here. In 2020, you had people who were frustrated with how a man was treated in police custody. You have a history in this country where it tore up scars, and there was hurt, and frustration and that bled out into the streets.
John Norris (07:43):
Very bad analogy, kind of peeled that scab off that had been festering for a while, and then just kind of ripped that bandaid off and everything kind of went south pretty quickly.
Chris Cooper (07:53):
Right. And there’s a history there of people who’ve lived here who have a vested interest in the country, who might not like the way, or not might not, they don’t like the way that certain actions have been taken in Memorial Day of 2020. What we’re seeing in Europe right now, like you mentioned, really to me is a different category because you’re looking at an outrage over the lack of incentives, or the lack of follow through on what they’ve been promised. Maybe you have some people come into France, Spain, Italy, and they thought they’d have a better way of life there. They thought they would be able to receive welfare or housing from the government, and it didn’t really come to fruition. They’re not getting what they expected to get when they entered this new country.
So it’s a different kind of category. It’s a different situation. And I think the frustrating part for many looking at it right now is, do you really have the vested interest to have this discourse to the point of rioting, and burning down city halls, and the amount of destruction that’s going on in Europe right now?
John Norris (09:03):
Well, that’s a great question. And underlying that is maybe I’m reading too much into it. Underlying that kind of begs the question, do these people who are protesting in Europe right now and to a lesser degree elsewhere, do they not understand cause and effect? And by that I mean, okay, “I don’t understand, France is wealthy; I want to live in France and therefore I can be wealthy.” Well, France didn’t just get to be wealthy because of the geographic location. There’s a lot more to it than that. And the same could be said for any country in Europe. It just isn’t because of a freak of geography. It’s the institutions, the freedom, the economic freedom that people had, the adherence to the rule of law.
Although the law might not have always favored everyone, if you have a rule of law and it’s effectively applied, people will play by the rules to a degree. Strong individual property rights, that’s very unlikely much of the remainder of the world throughout history.
And the U.K. really started that off. That’s why you saw the industrial revolution really start off there. It’s religious freedom. And while people who are religious in the United States might think that Europe takes that too far the other way, that’s more on that never. I would tell you that all these things are the reason why France is wealthy. It’s not because they speak French. It’s not because they are in a physical location. And it’s also not through dumb luck of the draw. It’s not from skin color. It’s not any of that. It’s because someone, somewhere, and people years ago, decades, centuries ago said, “This is how we’re going to run it and it’s going to allow opportunity for advancement for folks and that’s it. You got to come in.”
Whereas people who are rioting, maybe they don’t realize that it’s not just because it’s France, it’s because of what the French system represented for so long. That’s the reason why France is wealthy. That’s the reason why the U.K. is wealthy. That’s the reason why the remainder of Europe is far more wealthy than say Africa, or much of Asia, where just the rules were the institutions all promoted individualism to some degree, and allowed people to keep more and more of the fruits of their labor. It’s not just because the government was doling out stuff.
Unfortunately, a lot of people come in not understanding the cause and effect, and they just expect the effect, if you catch my drift. They just want the money spent without having to go through all of the calls, if you will, on what it truly means to be a Frenchman, what it truly means to be a Spaniard, what it truly means to be an Italian, a British subject, or even an American as the case may be.
So just nodding. I’m not sure we’re going to trade perspectives on that one.
Chris Cooper (12:04):
Yeah, I agree.
John Norris (12:05):
But do people really, when they come in and they riot, do they have legitimate grievances? Do they have that or complaints? Is it legitimate? If not legitimate, is it understandable? And sometimes the two are completely different.
Chris Cooper (12:30):
Right. And I think that’s what I was trying to get at earlier is I can understand the frustration in the US in 2020. I can understand the frustration on this side. Maybe that’s just because I’m American, and I live the culture and I see it. I don’t understand the frustration on the European side right now. If you have people coming into Europe with this maybe sense of entitlement, like you were mentioning, maybe they are just expecting the effect like you were talking about.
John Norris (12:59):
I think it’s expectations more than-
Chris Cooper (13:02):
It’s expectations.
John Norris (13:02):
More than entitlement. I think entitlement might be too strong a word. Too strong probably. But I think expectations, yeah.
Chris Cooper (13:07):
The expectation that I can just receive and benefit from this system without having a skin in the game, or a vested interest, or some kind of work or value add or production for me myself.
John Norris (13:19):
In some ways you’re kind of saying without any put up or shut up. That’s kind of what you’re saying. And so that’s kind of what you’re saying. Put your money where your mouth is, put up or shut up, all that stuff. I would tell you in terms of grievances and complaints, I don’t know, it’s one of those deals. It’s but for the grace of God go I, and Lord knows how I behave in that situation if I’m trying to make a better life for my family, and I come in and I think it’s going to be one thing, and it doesn’t meet my expectations because I have somehow sold myself. If no one else has sold me, but I’ve sold myself just a picture of Eden, of just wonderful how different my life’s going to be. And then I show up and you know what? I’m living in kind of, ghetto is a strong word, but the actual legitimate definition of ghetto is where people who have a similar situation tend to congregate.
I’m living in some kind of ghetto, and my life’s not really all that different than what it was back from where I came from. It’s just it’s a little bit more expensive and everyone around me has a lot more money than I do. So I think it’s the expectations coming in that I think it’s going to be something, and then it’s not quite what they envisioned thinking, “Oh my God, if all I have to do is get there and I will be wealthy and then finding out no, that’s not the way it works.” You were banking on the effects without the cause, just getting back to that.
So for me, and again, I’m not there, I’m not a sociologist or anything like that, I think that’s a huge chunk of it. The expectations of life being so much different, that somehow people in these wealthy countries just got by their money just because, and they’ve gotten by their money unfairly, or somehow they’ve rigged the system or something along those lines. And we could talk about whether or not the system’s rigged. And I think maybe that’s why conversely in the United States, why people seem to be so discontented with the present way of doing things is because this podcast one time talked about, is the American dream dead, and why people might feel discontent here, is because they are looking around and seeing people get ridiculously wealthy.
It’s like Elon Musk, the world’s first trillionaire. Jeff Bezos having just all this money. We’re talking about billionaires. And for a long period of time, yeah, you knew people would have more money than you did. There wasn’t any doubt about that. You knew people had more money than you did, but as long as you could work your butt off, you could, who knows, have a house, a car in the garage, eat steak once a week, and then be able to travel to the lake or the beach once a year and have a vacation. And that was enough because you didn’t know just the extremes. You expected them. But until we truly had social media, people didn’t really realize how that top one-tenth of 1% actually live, and just the sheer consumption of wealth, and the numbers are now so much staggering that I understand why people in the United States might feel as though the system’s rigged.
I’m upset about that, all that stuff. And it’s debatable whether or not the system is rigged. It’s just whether or not the reliance so much on someone else to make it for you, people’s mindsets are going to the effects as opposed to the causes here in the United States. And that’s what I think a huge chunk of all of this is. Do protestors have a point? I don’t know if they have a point as much as I kind of get it. Even if I don’t think that they have a point, I understand the mindset that we have to get to a point where somehow our cultures in Europe and the United States get back to the message of, “Hey man, you can have anything you want if you work hard enough for it.”
And as I’ve told my wife plenty of times, and as I’ve told my children, you can have just about anything you want, but you can’t have everything you want. But the message now from society is not only can you, should you, you deserve anything you want, but you deserve it all now. And that’s the message is getting skewed in Europe, in the United States. That’s how I feel. Chris?
Chris Cooper (17:51):
I completely agree. Actually some of this was centered around education as well. At least that’s what we’ve heard on mainstream news outlets of just what was happening, what was causing this unrest. And call me a skeptic, or maybe just a critical thinker who can piece two and two together, but since when do young people take to the streets to advocate for more education? I’m sorry, I just can’t get behind that one.
John Norris (18:16):
You were generally hoping for less homework as opposed to more?
Chris Cooper (18:20):
Call me illiterate. Maybe I was.
John Norris (18:22):
I don’t know.
Chris Cooper (18:24):
I don’t know. I wanted to play outside with my friends instead of read when I was in high school. I don’t know. That type of student with altruistic motives who really wants a better education probably would not take the path that we’re seeing right now in Europe to achieve those goals. It wouldn’t even be close to being a hijackable event, in my opinion, that would lead to whatever’s occurred in Paris, and Barcelona and other places in Europe. So I’m sorry, I just totally reject that narrative of education. Cost of living is one thing, wealth, maybe the handouts and I can understand that, but this whole education and wanting reform in education from these people who are maybe new to the country, don’t have a vested interest in the country, what do you think?
John Norris (19:17):
I agree with you on that. I don’t think a fistful of students demanding better textbooks and better instruction, if that’s in fact how it started, I don’t see how that turns into burning down city halls and smashing shops. I don’t get it. It’s like I didn’t understand in 2000. I understand, the visual is pretty hard to take on some of those things. And I get why people were upset about it, but I didn’t understand smashing stores and burning down stuff. And then that’s when you start seeing that level of unrest, generally, if it’s a legitimate cause for a protest and you end up in that sort of violence, then other people have somehow hijacked it. I don’t know who, I don’t know why, but that’s generally what happens.
Are there legitimate grievances? It all depends on what your definition of legitimate is, and all depends on what your definition of grievance is. Is some of the unhappiness, discontent, legitimate? Yeah. Maybe. I get it. I get it. I get it. I can say it again. I’m going to say it one more time. I get it.
Chris Cooper (20:24):
We would have to trade perspectives within that.
John Norris (20:27):
But that doesn’t mean I necessarily agree with it. So I will tell you, you kind of lead into our last topic here. Chris, what do you think it will take in the United States for protests to topple all of our public institutions and even our current system? We see the riots from six years ago. We see yet another No Kings rally. We see rallies here for this or that. People seem to be far more apt to protest now than they did 10, 20 years ago. What’s it going to take… Not what’s it going to take? That way I phrased it may sound like I’m looking forward to it. What would it take in order to effect some significant societal and institutional change in the United States?
Chris Cooper (21:15):
The change, John, I don’t know if I have the answer for you. I think there are policy choices here that would have to be made. But look, our country has seen waves of unrest throughout our history, right?
John Norris (21:27):
Yeah.
Chris Cooper (21:27):
Through it all, though, voices with vested interests in the future of the society that we live in have been heard, and the marketplace of open debate has led to compromises and a more balanced way of life, as well as innovative thinking like you’ve talked about earlier, wealth creation, and innovation and just a better place to live. And that has led to advancements in our country that other countries have not experienced. So the question for us will continue to be, who are we going to be as a country? Will we work together even despite our differences? Will we seek to achieve a compromisable solution that benefits all Americans? Or will we “go off the deep end,” if you will, and change our rules in ways and means to fundamentally tip the scale in more of our country into what countries without a vested interest in our nation’s history and direction look like?
So to me, those that have a rooted history with some sort of ownership in society such as, like you mentioned, owning land or in my opinion, most importantly, having children, should hold a more prominent seat at the debate table moving forward.
John Norris (22:39):
Wow, that’s pretty good thoughts right there. I would tell you that I don’t know the real answer to my question either. I really don’t. What would it take for protestors in the US to topple public institutions? I would tell you, this isn’t answering that question. I would tell you what kind of frustrates me a little bit is we’ve got this one particular guy I’m thinking of, but there’s plenty of others, but this one particular gentleman I’m thinking about, came to the United States decades ago from India with about $40 in his pocket, did anything he could, working fast food, all that stuff to help have some living expenses while he was in college on scholarship, ended up working his butt off. Just working super hard, and now is living by any definition, anyone’s definition, the true American dream. Came here with nothing, worked in fast food joints, did whatever he had to do, studied hard and living the American dream.
And you can ask him about it and he would say, “Yeah, the American dream’s alive and well. People throughout the world believe in the American dream, but what happens when Americans no longer believe in the American dream?” And unfortunately, I’m feeling that sort of undercurrent a little bit, and that must be because we’re not doing a good job teaching it somehow. If we’re teaching our young children and people that come into the country, this is a land of opportunity, we will give you the opportunity to succeed, but we’re not going to guarantee your success. And if we do something like that, which was the message when I was a kid, it really was. If that’s the message, people will, believe it or not, they’ll buy into that and they’ll make things happen.
However, if you come in and say, “We’re rich, and the reason why you’re not rich is because you’re getting the short end of the stick,” you’re not going to believe in the American dream. If you believe that someone else’s success is proof of your failure, then you are not going to succeed in life. And it seems as though that might be the message that we’re teaching our younger people. And I don’t think that’s good. So what will it take for protest? I don’t know. Let’s just keep on doing what we’re currently doing and we might find out in 20, 30 years. That’s not in my crystal ball, but you never know. I’d say, how do we prevent that? Let’s get back to teaching folks that this is a land of opportunity. We’ll give you the opportunity, but we won’t promise the outcome.
All right. With that, I hope our compliance department didn’t think we got too political on that today. If we did get too political, next week we will talk about religion and just make sure we offend everyone. But in all seriousness, folks, we’d love to hear from you also. If you have any comments or questions, please by all means, let us know. As always, you can drop us a line at , or you can leave us a review on the podcast outlet of your choice. If you’re interested in reading more, or hearing more of what we got to say or how we think, you can always go to oakworth.com, O-A-K-W-O-R-T-H.com. Take a look underneath the Though Leadership tab and find access to all kinds of exciting information, including links to previous podcasts, links to our newsletter/blog, common sense, links to our quarterly analysis. That’s all out there now, and it looks great and it’s really good stuff.
Chris did a great job. Our marketing department did a great job. Our friend down in Mobile, Dave McGrath, did a fantastic job. And we also have some good stuff from our advisory services group out there headed up by Mac Frazier. So go on out there and take a look. There really is some good stuff out there. All right. And now with that, Chris, I’m going to ask you if you have any other thoughts today on this potentially divisive topic.
Chris Cooper (26:20):
I might be delaying my European trip.
John Norris (26:25):
Fair enough. I don’t have any plans to go across the pond this year either. All right. That’s all I’ve got today too. Y’all take care.
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